In this powerful episode of Warden’s Watch, Pennsylvania Game Wardens Phil Bietsch & TJ Knash share the story of a career-defining poaching case tied to the tragic death of fellow officer David Grove on Veteran’s Day 2010. From building trust to securing confessions, this case is a masterclass in investigative work and emotional resilience. Listen now to hear how justice was served, and a legacy honored.
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Here’s what we discuss:
- Phil and TJ were classmates at the Ross Leffler School of Conservation
- Working as neighboring officers for four years, they’ve developed a strong investigative partnership
- Emphasis on teamwork, rhythm in interviews, and rapport-building
- Ryan Laumann is a known habitual game law offender
- The case ties back to the tragic death of Game Warden Dave Grove in 2010, who was murdered by Chris Johnson during a poaching incident
- Laumann was a passenger in the vehicle
- Laumann “just went home.”
- Johnson is now on death row
- Equipment and training were improved
- Laumann received a five-year license revocation
- A tip from a former violator turned informant via Operation Game Thief
- “I got away with it once, I can do it again.”
- TJ took the lead
- Keeping emotions in check
- “Take your time.”
- Officers conducted surveillance near Laumann’s residence
- Multiple deer carcasses, gut piles, and antlers
- Officers used rapport and strategic interviewing to gain Laumann’s trust
- Jeff Baile’s interview and interrogation techniques were critical
- Allowing the suspect to tell their version of the story
- Laumann eventually confesses to killing multiple deer
- From a good case to a great case
- “Rapport is the foundation of everything.”
- Laumann was charged with:
- 3 counts of illegal deer3 tagging violations
- 3 counts of scattering high-risk parts
- 1 over-the-bag-limit charge
- Final penalties: 5-year hunting license revocation and $2,800 in fines
Credits
Hosts: Wayne Saunders and John Nores
Producer: Jay Ammann
Warden’s Watch logo & Design: Ashley Hannett
Research / Content Coordinator: Stacey DesRoches
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